Well, last week’s episode sure was eventful, eventful enough I wrote my longest episodic write-up to date. What did we have and where are we going with it? Hayama walked a mile in Hachiman’s shoes, and extended empathy and pity to him that Hachiman rejected, because he’s not ready for such abrupt change, and to not being punished.
For all of her talk of not sacrificing oneself, Yukino is going to take it all on her and is going to run for presidency. Yui does not wish to be the only one to let her friends suffer, so her solution, as someone who understands taking the load is suffering and you don’t let friends suffer is to take the load on herself, so she could suffer. And now we are in a pickle, in a place where Hachiman has to choose how to get it so that only he would suffer, or the least amount of people will suffer. Is he going to run for Student Council President himself, with hopes of winning? How will you save your friends who are only trying to save you, dearest Hikki?
Thoughts and Notes:
1) For Sister and State!:
1) This is hard for Hikki. Hikki isn’t used to be the one to frankly reach out to the other, to fix relationships, to say he was wrong, to try and make things not just “optimum happiness for everyone while hating him,” but actually fixing them hating him. But this shows that to Hikki, his relationship with Komachi is just that important. As an aside, this is also why the “incest” romantic line in anime had replaced the robot girlfriend one, someone who’salways supposed to be there for you. So when she’s not, it means things are really that bad.
2) D’awww, dat smile! Also, how surprised Hikki was with how quickly Komachi gave in. Sometimes, all you need is to ask, and to speak plainly, rather than manipulate people, eh? Especially when they care for you.
“That’s okay.” – All everyone wants to hear, for someone else to take the burden off of their shoulders. Hachiman knows that best.
3) “But you’re only capable of being nice to me because I’m your sister, otherwise you’d keep as far away from me as possible.” – Last episode when Haruno reached out to him, her hand like a snake. When he said in his inside voice on the train in the first arc that Yui is too close. When he sat distant from Yukino as they discussed Tobe’s case. Last episode in the cinema. Yet here, he’s practically touching his sister. This is the hedgehog’s dilemma. Hikki accepts Komachi as “close” without having to think about it, or think of her motivations. He doesn’t ask “Why does Komachi like me? What does she have to gain from showing me pity?” – He just accepts it. Family as a logic-breaker, as a facet of reality that just is. Well, I can tell you it’s not always that simple, but hey, it’s not that sort of story. We only need one dose of misunderstanding and loneliness in this show.
2) Helping Hachiman:
1) And so, Sensei’s warning is dealt with, or at least the conundrum posed. Hachiman has been given a request to help his friends. He’s been given a request to help his friends by helping himself, and to help himself by helping his friends. Komachi’s request is one that cannot be solved by Hachiman sacrificing himself, because that won’t truly help Yui and Yukinon, and the club.
2) “To preserve that place, and the time we spend together there.” – And so, Hachiman must act in service to the ideas he’s always been speaking against, but always acting for – stopping change. Well, he’s always been afraid of change, but, stopping change because this is home, with others.
3) “How many times have you had to listen to my prattle?” – LOLOLOL. Seems this is the episode for side-characters to come and tell Hachiman he has who to turn to, that he has people he can confide in. Even if they can be a pain in the ass.
“Stupid. Don’t start act legitimately cool on me.” :’)
4) Kawasaki only suggested names of people she knows, people from her class and Yukinoshita, whom everyone knows. Makes sense – everyone picks the people they know, in such instances. Now it remains to be seen what route Hachiman is planning to take with Iroha, for whom this is all about the image.
3) No Problemo!:
1) I wonder, is the tactic to have so many people up for vote that not a single one will get enough votes to end up as Student Council President? Then again, Hikki at this point is looking to help Yui and Yuikino, rather than Iroha, so is his tactic to make sure no one can get 30 nominations to actually be at risk of being elected?
2) “Don’t worry, no one will get hurt.” – The best worst line, the worst best line, in the list of narrative “famous last lines.” Zaimokuza just told Hachiman that there are risks involved, but being a chuuni who likes to be overly dramatic and then speaking of “being caught,” it might be more about that sort of risk, of people being angry. Given what we know of Hachiman, he doesn’t seem to fully grasp what will get people hurt, so there might yet be risk of people being hurt – such as if he hurts himself.
And yet, this also shows some potential growth on Hikki’s part, as he’s not saying he’ll be hurt for someone else’s sake, nor will he hurt one person for their own benefit and those around them (scaring the girls so they’d reform as a group), but rather, trying to make it so so that no one will be hurt. It just remains to be seen if his flawed understanding of others, and himself, will suffice.
3) “A problem is not a problem if it’s not seen as one.” – This is a great line. It reminds me something I’ve heard a psychologist say before. If, for example, you don’t have a girlfriend and you find it to be something that makes your life not worth living, then it’s an issue that needs fixing. If you don’t consider it a problem, then it’s not something that you need to do anything about. The reverse for “good situations” is equally true – if you find being “popular” a “problem”, then it needs to be fixed. “Only things that people find problematic are problems” is the rephrase. Yes, there are obviously exceptions, but we’re mostly talking about specific people with personal issues, not “I don’t find this a problem, so it means no one else should,” about public concepts.
This of course also opens up Hachiman’s situation with those around him in an interesting manner – if he doesn’t see himself suffering as a problem, then why is it a problem? Is it his problem that others see it as a problem? Only if he’s troubled by what others see as one. Which is why I guess the subtitles’ exact phrasing is actually important in this case: “A problem is not a problem so long as no one sees it as one.” This is the social perspective. Growth.
4) Being a Role-Model is Hard:
1) “He seemed like a nice guy so I wanted to sed(uce)… hold his hand or something.” – Iroha going for “seemings”. This is something I always found a bit weird in anime, about the “confessions” from people who don’t know one another at all. Iroha also doesn’t seem like she wants to put in the effort, and is only interested in hanging by people. Which is why she doesn’t want to be the Student Council President. Unlike Minami who ran for Cultural Festival President, she at least doesn’t take up a role that’d harm others in order to seem successful – she knows she’s not willing to do the work.
2) So, just like with Minami, Hachiman is using reverse psychology, or is it that Iroha wanted to win? Iroha wants to be popular, and he’s dangling in front of her that others are more popular than she is, but that if she were to win, she’d end up the most popular, or at least she’d seem the most popular. And here is the other side of “popularity,” because Iroha is popular, why not just nominate her, everyone says, even if they don’t actually care enough to vote for her? And that’d crush her popularity, which she’s trying to avoid. Ah, school.
3) Hachiman, telling her how to use Student Council Presidency to avoid going to club, and club to avoid going to Student Council President is bad advice, it’d teach her how to fail at everything. But Iroha isn’t stupid, she knows it’d be hard work for both, rather than for neither. And now he dangles Hayama in front of her.
4) This is the nature of “No one will be hurt,” and “It’s only a problem if people see it as one.” This is Hikki’s plan. The plan is to get Iroha to want to win, and then the club members won’t need to oppose her, and all will go well.
5) And we go from least important to most important – “I can’t let down all my supporters,” (distant audience, not people we’re attached to. This is the “I have friends” route.), “It does sound like an attractive proposition,” (whom we like, and rationalization. This is the “Hachiman route” of doing things.) and finally, “Besides, I don’t want my classmates to make fun of me behind my back,” (the “I don’t want to be hurt,” route, the Hikki route, and the one dealing with the people in our immediate presence).
5) Yukino’s Inexplicable Rejection:
1) And here we are with the lie – those people aren’t really rooting for Iroha, it was just to edge her into wishing to run herself. But as Hachiman said, so long as no one has a problem with it, then there’s no problem. Which brings us to the million dollar question, what did Yukino mean with “And here I was sure you’d understand,” following, “So there’s no longer a problem, or a reason for me to act.” I’ll be honest, that I’m not sure myself. I’ll try to jot out what I think it could mean before we’re given more information, assuming we do:
First, she did want to run for Student Council President, outdo her sister, and just as Iroha needed an excuse, so did she. There’s also the alternative that she did want there to be a problem, and did want to get away from Hachiman, but I don’t think this latter is really the case. It’s also possible that like Yui, it was important for her to solve this case for her friends, this time. This deals with “A reason for me to run.”
Second, the other side of that sentence, “There’s no longer a problem.” – Yukino and Yui know how Hikki had cheated, and Yukino had said before that she does not approve of underhanded tactics, even if the solution is indeed one where everyone is happy. He once again did things his own way, and not as she wished for him to, not honestly.
Third, still going off of the above, even if it were honest, it’s Hikki resolving the problem by solving the root cause of Iroha not wanting to run, but not the underlying cause of that, of her quest for popularity, of her being played by those around her, and by not giving her the chance to fail and learn from it. Yui and Yukino’s methodsdid involve Iroha losing, after all, even if not getting crushed by a vote of no confidence.
Fourth, and final option, this is still about Hikki supposedly solving others’ issues, not speaking clearly of what he wants – not to fulfill someone else’s request, but to save their club.
2) “I’ll be fine by myself.” Ouch. This is saying the club is sort of dead. That’s an incredibly Hachiman-like line. Damn.
6) “You Did Your Best,” “I Did Nothing Amazing” – Indeed:
1) Hikki is flustered by being thanked, by being thanked as if he did it all for someone else. Well, he did, but he also did it for himself. For once.
2) Yui taking her seat from the other corner, from Yukino’s corner, and placing it next to Hikki is so very symbolic. It shows it’s not only Yukino who keeps the club alive, but Hikki’s contribution had been accepted as well.
3) “I didn’t do anything.” – “Not where we could see, but I bet you did something that’d make an unpleasant sight.” – There are two parts to this sentence that relate to what Yukino might have meant earlier, and the first is one I didn’t outline above – Hachiman didn’t turn to his friends for help. Well, he did, but they don’t know it, and if they knew, they might be hurt that he didn’t turn to them for aid. Then there’s the second part, where everyone assumes there’d been a sacrifice made somewhere, even if it’s to Hikki’s morality. Still sacrificing himself, by playing dirty.
“You probably can’t change your methods that easily.” – Yui isn’t telling Hachiman he did good, but that he didhis best. Yukino was saying “Your best isn’t good enough.” “And that guilt wouldn’t go away that easily.” – Meaning, everyone feels guilty over letting Hachiman “win”, because they know it means he sacrificed something, his morals? Perhaps, but his view of himself? For certain. And Hikki knows more than everyone else that he had to give up on his ideals, or on how others see him.
4) And now Hikki’s speaking up in support of Yukino reason #1 – Yukino being like him, who’s only helping others when they come to them for aid, when they make the request themselves. Except, unlike him, she does want to help others. She wants to be Student Council President for the same reason she started the club, she wants others to come to her so she could help them, and gain self-worth from the act of helping others. Unlike Hachiman though, she doesn’t hide that she gets her self-worth from that.
7) The Fresh View From Outside & The Insidious Resistance to Change:
1) Huh. Huh. With all of our thoughts of “solutions”, of “Will Yukino be the president, or Hayama, or Hikki? Will the club be disbanded, or will someone else win so the club could remain in place?” we’ve been bamboozled. That’s Meguri for you, giving an entirely new solution to the whole issue, that corresponds directly to my preceding paragraph. That’s what you expect from the Student Council President, who actually understands people and conflict resolution…
In case you missed it, the problem was how to keep “the club” in place, right? What made up their club? They solved other students’ issues, and spent time together. Their club activities is exactly in line with the Student Council’s role, and they could all be in the Student Council together. That one of them won did not have to mean the others lost. So Hikki went and did things the only way he knew how – make everybody lose. Yes, he maintained the status quo, which wasn’t bad, but he once more did what Yukino accused him of last episode – he rejected change.
2) Hikki is also somewhat flustered, that his little club is an atmosphere others want to partake it, people who see him as an ally, as a friend, or at least as a friendly acquaintance.
3) That scene with Meguri? The underlying subtext is that even she, popular and successful, and ready to embark on her life just wants some friends, wants to be able to return to the past, to a secure and welcoming place. Change is scary, and no one gets everything that they want. This might also explain Haruno, and also dovetails nicely into the next point.
4) “Would it change your life, if you could reload your life from save-data? The answer is a resounding no.” – The instinct is to reject this out of hand, that we’d all take different actions and try things over and over again if we could, right? So where does this rejection come from? There’s something to what Hikki is saying here, which is reflected once again in “Will you not change?” by Yukino – We all have the ability to change the course our lives take, and we keep on making the same decisions as the same situations come around – we just do it as those situations keep coming up one after the other, not the same situation repeatedly. We end up making the same decisions, because we are who we are. Hachiman is voicing here his belief that we won’t make different decisions, because we can only make the decisions that our natures dictate. He’s not entirely wrong, that’s why it’s our nature. The nature can change, gradually, but so long it doesn’t, it wouldn’t really matter.
Shorter Notes / Asides:
- Notice how the show keeps framing it by us looking at their backs. At any given time, one of them has their back turned to the other, or both of them have their backs turned to us, on us.
- “You’re such a piece of trash. I love it.” – Zaimokuza might be a caricature, but unlike Fujoshi Ebina, I alwayssmile when he’s around.
- Dat Falsetto from Hachiman >.>
- Hikki being pet as a dog. He really can’t tell Yui likes him. Amazing.
Next episode’s preview was filled with art from this episode, and told us nothing of the upcoming episode. Hm.
Post-Episode Thoughts:
I actually plotted this section nicely. The best way to discuss this episode is in reverse order. How did it end? It ended with Hachiman saying, “No matter how many opportunities I’d have had, I’d have made the same decision.” This isn’t an ideological cry of triumph, but an admission of defeat, of awareness of what he is, and who he is. One who misses the not so-obvious optimum situation, while delving for far more complicated machinations that yield less favourable results. He’s sort of like Zaimokuza in that regard, where everything is needlessly overwrought, because simple honesty hurts.
Which brings us to Yukinoshita’s disappointment, and of how Hachiman sees himself as having failed her as well. Yukino knows Hachiman is close to her, so she expected him to see how she’s like him, and understand her, and that she wants to help others, but can’t approach them herself. Except, Yukino is so much like Hikki that she too can’t actually bring herself to simply tell the other side what she wants. Yukino was disappointed by someone being so similar to her that he couldn’t realize their similarity, and was disappointed by her own similarity that stopped her from outright asking for help, over her ideals and self-image.
Which brings us to the obvious solution, to Hikki with his friends in the cafe, and asking his sister for help and forgiveness after explaining the whole situation to her. All you need to do is to let yourself be vulnerable, to trust others to help you as you try to help them. All you need to do is simply say things as they are.
“All you need to do is…”, “Simply”, “obvious”, “just”. Except people have a hard time admitting to themselves what it is they wish for (see Iroha), let alone others. And that’s why they’ll make the same decision every time. The wrong one. Until they don’t. Until “they” are different people, who’ll make their own inevitable decisions.
Geekorner-Geekulture. 
g8 review <3
Sorry about bringing in the LNs last time, but this episode was why I wanted to make sure that part was understood–Hikigaya towards Hayama, Yukino towards Hikigaya, and Meguri towards Hikigaya makes three instances of, “I hoped you’d understand, but you got it completely wrong.”
I don’t think there’s anything to worry about on the “preview,” they’ve done end-of-episode skits before–Iroha and Hikigaya talking in the hallway, for instance. That was just an LN bit from Hikigaya’s visit to the StuCo room.
I’d say that if you worry about people misinterpreting things due to lack of LN context, you should bring up the LN context after it’s relevant, not before. Otherwise, as stated, it’d shape how people read the material and might get a different impression than the adaptation aimed for, or they’d have received the information before they would’ve liked, or… in other words, you should clarify in retrospect, not in advance.
And well, I’ve had it pointed out elsewhere, about the skits, and it’s true, but going over my screenshot collection after an episode, how static each episode is really leaps out at you. It doesn’t really matter all that much, as the direction knows how to make the most of subtle motions and it’s a show where silences and stillness mean a lot, alongside being “talking-head focused,” but it’s a pretty static show.
It would seem that my theory on ‘Hachiman’ and ‘ Hikki’ is in line with yours. Also, excellent thoughts on Episode 5.
It’s not exactly the same, but it’s close enough. I said the whole point is to think it through yourself, so I’m not going to point where we differ, or state where I think you’re wrong. After all, it’s lens for you to look at the show through, to help increase your enjoyment. Heck, parsing subtext (and people are so full of subtext) is somewhat of a personalized experience :)
Glad you liked this write-up as well!
Great analysis once again, enjoying these quite a bit.
On the subject of Yukino telling Hikki he still doesn’t understand, could one meaning be that she believes that Yui, Hikki and herself are actual friends and that even if they don’t participate in the club anymore they’d still be friends? That it wasn’t just some superficial thing like the club holding them together while Hikki thinks that this is the only way to preserve their friendship which Yui is so scared of losing?
Otherwise I think the explanation is probably your third one, where Yuki thinks the real problem is Iroha’s quest for popularity and how she needs to fail to learn. This seems to fall in line the most with Yuki’s thinking.
The scene where Hikki tells them about how they won’t need to run for president anymore, Yui seems like she knows something. She says “campaign accounts” and reaches for her phone but does nothing. It seems like she realizes something.
This would’ve been an alright option if not for the final scene with Meguri, but one I don’t think would’ve been perfect. Yes, they could’ve, and would have remained friends, but still spent less time together, as happened in the Cultural Festival with Yui who wasn’t part of the committee alongside Yukino and Hikki. I’d also say Hikki wanted to help protect his friends from running for presidency when they don’t want to, and not just their club/friendship. Protecting the club was more than merely protecting the friendship, but protecting the comfortable and safe status quo they had.
Yui, including in her line about how Hachiman certainly did something “unpleasant,” knows that Hachiman bent or broke the rules to get Iroha to run and win. Yui definitely falls under the second explanation, and I was sure that so did Yukino, because this fits into her chastising Hachiman for being unwilling to change, to stop using bad methods for worthy goals.
But there’s that scene with Meguri, which brings us back to the first option, with a twist – Yukino wanted to run, and wanted to keep the club going, just move it to the Student Council.
Love reading your blog, even as a LN reader it’s great to see such posts. It is just one big reason why I’m so fond of this series. Different aspects and layers to the story up the wazoo and new insight everytime from reading the varied takes to the events of Oregairu.
About the meaning of what Yukino hoped Hachiman would understand:
Both Hachiman and Yui held the view that the three of them shared a relationship that was bound by the premise of the Service Club. Yukino thought otherwise and was disappointed since neither of them understood that and were so headstrong in pursuing their own methods to prevent the inevitable breakup of the club, much less stop to think about this possibility.
in addition to that they both(Yukino and Hachimanman) thought they knew each other more than they really do. They are waking up from that illusion at this point. Yukino, who always believed in Hachiman as someone who would understand her and what she had in mind, and Hachiman who thought he knew her motivations. They no longer have this “trust” between them anymore.
So I have to say Yukino was wrong in this regard, although she might have even hoped to achieve something similar to what Meguri talked about the end of the episode.Their relationship couldn’t have endured this and Yukino herself doesn’t realize how important that point is yet. Sensei makes it a point in the novels to let Hikki know how Yukino actually still went to the clubroom everyday even during the voluntary period of this request.
I’m glad you and the other LN readers find my posts enjoyable to read. I’d go as far to say as they should also prove insightful to you guys as well, in optimal conditions. But how could that be, with the usual LNitis requiring Hachiman to actually explain everything he and those around him think? Because no character is a reliable narrator here, especially not of how they feel and of how social interactions work, heh.
Yes, that’s what I said after the little chat with Meguri, and moreover in my post-episode write-up – Yukino thinks Hachiman is like her, so she expected him to understand her thought process, but since she is indeed like him, she couldn’t tell him, and thus nothing actually came out of it.
I don’t agree with you about how it’d have panned out badly. There’s no reason their relationship couldn’t have endured the minimal change of just carrying over everything they’re doing to the Student Council. Why wouldn’t it? If their relationship couldn’t survive it, then it also can’t survive remaining in their current club, sans the extra pressure this arc added on top of everything.
It could have panned out badly. Simply because they aren’t ready YET.
Here is Hachiman’s monologue (using Spyro/Excorcism LN translation) at the end again:
So basically Hachiman is saying that he didn’t have that as a choice. Meguri says she wanted them all to join the student council, but that wasn’t even an option for them. Yui ran against Yukino instead of with her. Both Yui, Komachi, and Hachiman himself wanted the Service Club intact.
Joining the student council together is something that never crossed any of their minds, so it’s not a choice he could have chosen. Even Yui kept believing that the club would break apart with Yukino becoming student council president. Granted, if Yukino had something like that in mind (what Meguri suggested) and would have actually talked her intentions over with them it would probably be an entire different matter..but I guess the title of this series is quite fitting :)
Please use blockquote for quotes, or > before each quoted line, to ease readability.
And what you’re saying fits what I said in my piece, except it doesn’t at all translate to “not being ready”. Hachiman is saying that he’d make the wrong choice every time, because he’s true to his nature. “Not having a choice” can be read as “I can’t see/understand/pick X route,” and there are a variety of reasons. There’s nothing there about “unready to leave the club, and moving to the student council will destroy what fragile thing they have, even if nothing will really change.” I mean, you can choose to read things like that, but I see see zero justification for this read, either in the show, or in anything you provided.
You can say “their lack of readiness” is why they couldn’t even see the solution Meguri provided, but anything else is rationalization that doesn’t actually fit the show and characters’ actions.
Also, Spyro/Excorcism (who translates the LN Novels) makes also every week reviews of the new episode on his blog where the LN is translated, without spoilering of course, only giving sometimes some hints/explanations of certain characters behavior and I thought I would just leave this here about Yukino’s line:
“So what is Yukino still upset with, or more accurately, disappointed in? It’s their relationship, that is, the relationship in the Service Club. As we know, Yukino hates superficiality. And we know Hachiman does as well, or supposedly. But in the same way he chose to protect Hayama’s group, he did the same with the Service Club. It’s clear that Hachiman and Yui are fixated on the Service Club. But Yukino certainly wasn’t the same way. She thought that perhaps, their relationship could continue beyond the bond of the Service Club (now superficial) and the perfect opportunity to test this was the student council election. It’s certainly likely Yukino wanted to run for presidency personally, but that wasn’t the only thing. She wanted to see if their relationship wasn’t bound by something as superficial as a title, the Service Club. This is where Hachiman gets it wrong. And this is where Yukino gets disappointed. Not just in him, but also in Yui. She wanted to see if their relationship was genuine. She wanted something genuine. Keyword that will be incredibly important in the next few episodes. She had expectations of both of them, that they also felt the same way, and thus would understand what it is that she was trying to do. But they were too blindsided by the idea of the Service Club which is more or less the root of the problem for Yukino. So at this point, Yukino gave up hence her lukewarm reaction at the very end.”
I’m not gonna lie. This sounds like the most depressing anime ever judging solely by your editorials. I’m afraid if I start watching I’m going in for a major case of feels from which I will never fully recover from.
By editorials, do you mean the “post-episode thoughts” section? Because the notes themselves aren’t really editorials, but more “running commentary”.
As to it being depressing, I guess if you find yourself in Hachiman, or have recently been one, or find the way in which people are imperfect to be depressing, then it can be a depressing show. I somehow don’t feel that way. I feel this show is filled with understanding for its characters, even as it smacks them for being silly. But yes, this season had some very “rough” moments for some of the characters, but it felt more like great drama, or sad in a good way, rather than “depressing”. But I can see how it’d be.
Oh man I’m jealous you haven’t watched it yet. This anime is really good, it actually has thought and depth behind it where characters are faced with problems that change their dynamics. It isn’t just some entertainment anime where everything is taken at face value and your main character is this retard guy who just finds himself in stupid situations.
There’s actual real character development other than just a guy finally realizing that 17 girls likes him for no apparent reason with no real story line.
I wish more anime where like this. As someone who has never read a LN this has made me want to check out other LNs this author has written because there is actual good writing behind this.
The last time I’ve enjoyed an anime this much was when I was watching Legends of the Galactic Heroes. Sadly these are few and very far between. I’ve stopped watching anime for the most part unless I find gems like these.
Mood is important. Sometimes you’d rather not watch a good show if it makes you feel like crap, y’know? In the end, how we feel in the real world is more important, and if a show can ruin it for us, then avoiding it can be a very good decision.
Also, some friends who read the LN say the anime is better, less meandering, less LN-like, sharper. Though as with any opinion, I’m sure there are those who disagree ;-)
@Guy
Speaking of impactful anime, I felt something died in me after I finished Texhnolyze. It could have been my soul getting torn apart. Funnily, I cannot even tell whether I thought it was good or bad show as today I literally fear remembering it or, gods forbid, rewatching it.
That sounds a bit extreme. If you want to revisit such an experience, try Aku no Hana.
I tried to watch Texhnolyze with an anime club, which led to me trying to marathon it 5 episodes at a time. It was just too slow and atmospheric for that, so who knows when I’ll finish it.